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	<title>Comments for Anne Z.</title>
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	<link>http://annezelenka.com</link>
	<description>notes on numbers and other randomness</description>
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		<title>Comment on Dissertation topic: Constructing predictive indexes by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2011/08/14/dissertation-topic/#comment-335</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1762#comment-335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree, what you&#039;re modeling with the reflective model of participation is a drive to participate, not actual participation. That is a problem with using reflective measurement when a formative model is called for -- you&#039;re not actually capturing the same thing. A drive to participate is prior to actual participation (what you&#039;re trying to quantify) and increased belongingness may be a result of it.

Health does seem multidimensional -- you have respiratory health, brain health, digestive health. Reflective models handle multidimensionality quite well but if you were to use Apgar&#039;s indicators to model health reflectively you&#039;d likely find multiple latent factors and you wouldn&#039;t come up with a one-number summary. You could use a second-order factor model, but the real purpose is to quantify in terms of predicted outcomes... how well will this baby survive and thrive? Introducing predicted outcomes into a formative model actually expresses the situation of interest. Besides that, there is not necessarily a higher order factor of health even though it&#039;s useful for us to conceive of one. A baby might have had an insult to one system but everything else is fine. 

Formative modeling is not illogical just like multiple regression is not illogical -- it is merely a way of expressing that sometimes multiple things combine together to predict other things. I don&#039;t necessarily take a composite variable as something real though. Formative modeling is pragmatic, whereas reflective models often assume a realist epistemology in which latent factors have objective, independent existence.

Thanks for your comment, and for your blog post summarizing Edwards&#039; critiques of formative measurement. I know I have a lot more to think about here and feedback is helpful. Meanwhile, I find Bollen&#039;s writings on formative measurement have some good answers to Edwards&#039; critiques. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, what you&#8217;re modeling with the reflective model of participation is a drive to participate, not actual participation. That is a problem with using reflective measurement when a formative model is called for &#8212; you&#8217;re not actually capturing the same thing. A drive to participate is prior to actual participation (what you&#8217;re trying to quantify) and increased belongingness may be a result of it.</p>
<p>Health does seem multidimensional &#8212; you have respiratory health, brain health, digestive health. Reflective models handle multidimensionality quite well but if you were to use Apgar&#8217;s indicators to model health reflectively you&#8217;d likely find multiple latent factors and you wouldn&#8217;t come up with a one-number summary. You could use a second-order factor model, but the real purpose is to quantify in terms of predicted outcomes&#8230; how well will this baby survive and thrive? Introducing predicted outcomes into a formative model actually expresses the situation of interest. Besides that, there is not necessarily a higher order factor of health even though it&#8217;s useful for us to conceive of one. A baby might have had an insult to one system but everything else is fine. </p>
<p>Formative modeling is not illogical just like multiple regression is not illogical &#8212; it is merely a way of expressing that sometimes multiple things combine together to predict other things. I don&#8217;t necessarily take a composite variable as something real though. Formative modeling is pragmatic, whereas reflective models often assume a realist epistemology in which latent factors have objective, independent existence.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment, and for your blog post summarizing Edwards&#8217; critiques of formative measurement. I know I have a lot more to think about here and feedback is helpful. Meanwhile, I find Bollen&#8217;s writings on formative measurement have some good answers to Edwards&#8217; critiques.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Dissertation topic: Constructing predictive indexes by Richard N. Landers</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2011/08/14/dissertation-topic/#comment-334</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard N. Landers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2011 03:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1762#comment-334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I still don&#039;t think you have your direction of causation correct in regards to formative measurement.  You say:

&quot;In a latent factor setting, you would then assume some underlying level of participation that gave rise to the observed frequencies of participation. That’s not quite right though. If someone increases their participation in some area — say by joining an investment club — their overall level of participation goes up. &quot;

That&#039;s not quite right either - the latent factor would be some psychological trait - e.g. belongingness, desire to participate - which in turn caused both of those participation rates to increase.  You can&#039;t conceptualize that form of participation as causing the other - rather, they are alternate indicators of the same underlying phenomenon (or are possibly at different levels of measurement).

Your observation about Agpar, as far as I can tell not being familiar with it specifically, is right on - you are collecting disparate specific bits of information and ultimately measuring overall health (the latent trait).  The latent trait cannot be measured directly, but the operationalizations that reflect it can.  The complexity really comes in when the latent trait is multidimensional, and it is that complexity level that lead many to flee to the relative (although illogical) simplicity of formative measurement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t think you have your direction of causation correct in regards to formative measurement.  You say:</p>
<p>&#8220;In a latent factor setting, you would then assume some underlying level of participation that gave rise to the observed frequencies of participation. That’s not quite right though. If someone increases their participation in some area — say by joining an investment club — their overall level of participation goes up. &#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not quite right either &#8211; the latent factor would be some psychological trait &#8211; e.g. belongingness, desire to participate &#8211; which in turn caused both of those participation rates to increase.  You can&#8217;t conceptualize that form of participation as causing the other &#8211; rather, they are alternate indicators of the same underlying phenomenon (or are possibly at different levels of measurement).</p>
<p>Your observation about Agpar, as far as I can tell not being familiar with it specifically, is right on &#8211; you are collecting disparate specific bits of information and ultimately measuring overall health (the latent trait).  The latent trait cannot be measured directly, but the operationalizations that reflect it can.  The complexity really comes in when the latent trait is multidimensional, and it is that complexity level that lead many to flee to the relative (although illogical) simplicity of formative measurement.</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-08-28 by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My feed reader changes all the time, I&#039;m always adding and subtracting depending on what my latest obsession is! The dataspora blog is a good one. I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll keep it around for a while.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My feed reader changes all the time, I&#8217;m always adding and subtracting depending on what my latest obsession is! The dataspora blog is a good one. I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ll keep it around for a while.</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-08-28 by Catherine</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catherine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[or you know, dataspora - when you let the fingers do the walking and the brain doesn&#039;t do the reading :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or you know, dataspora &#8211; when you let the fingers do the walking and the brain doesn&#8217;t do the reading <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-08-28 by Catherine</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-228</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catherine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like the seven secrets article. Your feed reader must be an amazing read - I&#039;m adding diaspora now, even though I&#039;m out of the ETL/BI/reporting world. I&#039;ve recently become a fan of Good, they do awesome data visualizations - often on education topics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the seven secrets article. Your feed reader must be an amazing read &#8211; I&#8217;m adding diaspora now, even though I&#8217;m out of the ETL/BI/reporting world. I&#8217;ve recently become a fan of Good, they do awesome data visualizations &#8211; often on education topics.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Telling stories to the remembering self by karen darmon</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/03/04/telling-stories-to-the-remembering-self/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[karen darmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 21:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1022#comment-194</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[inevitably, as we get older, much older, all we have are our own internalized stories.
the trick is to keep them positive; not to forget the anti hero as well.  the question is what leads to one construct over the other?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>inevitably, as we get older, much older, all we have are our own internalized stories.<br />
the trick is to keep them positive; not to forget the anti hero as well.  the question is what leads to one construct over the other?</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-07-30 by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/07/30/links-for-2010-07-30/#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/links-for-2010-07-30/#comment-187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cato is heartily in favor of private school vouchers, so that&#039;s where this guy is going with his argument.

Where I think that it&#039;s interesting is in the idea that a robust private school sector offers a kind of competition that charter schools can&#039;t. Charter schools are still public schools subject to many rules and regulations that don&#039;t apply to private schools. And charter schools are not really subject to market discipline as they get the same amount of money per pupil no matter what they do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cato is heartily in favor of private school vouchers, so that&#8217;s where this guy is going with his argument.</p>
<p>Where I think that it&#8217;s interesting is in the idea that a robust private school sector offers a kind of competition that charter schools can&#8217;t. Charter schools are still public schools subject to many rules and regulations that don&#8217;t apply to private schools. And charter schools are not really subject to market discipline as they get the same amount of money per pupil no matter what they do.</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-07-30 by Filippo Morelli</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/07/30/links-for-2010-07-30/#comment-186</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Filippo Morelli]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/links-for-2010-07-30/#comment-186</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The original intent of charter schools was to put competition back in as the formula for continuous improvement. Any protected institution wallows in its own wastewater. The notion that charter schools kill private schools and increase burden is absurd. By law (tax and otherwise), all children in the United States have the right to a public education. Making an increase or decrease argument of burden due to private schoolers having a decent public school choice through charters is like saying my incompetent service, now competent, is going to be used. Smells like more liberal arguments.

I find all of this laughable. I pay taxes. My house is on a gravel road, on a private 1/2 of road, on well and septic. Until this past year all three of my children were home schooled.

So as I taxpayer, because I was paying into the system but not using the services, now I&#039;m an added burden? Interesting concept.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The original intent of charter schools was to put competition back in as the formula for continuous improvement. Any protected institution wallows in its own wastewater. The notion that charter schools kill private schools and increase burden is absurd. By law (tax and otherwise), all children in the United States have the right to a public education. Making an increase or decrease argument of burden due to private schoolers having a decent public school choice through charters is like saying my incompetent service, now competent, is going to be used. Smells like more liberal arguments.</p>
<p>I find all of this laughable. I pay taxes. My house is on a gravel road, on a private 1/2 of road, on well and septic. Until this past year all three of my children were home schooled.</p>
<p>So as I taxpayer, because I was paying into the system but not using the services, now I&#8217;m an added burden? Interesting concept.</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-07-30 by Chris Mahan</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/07/30/links-for-2010-07-30/#comment-185</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Mahan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/links-for-2010-07-30/#comment-185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wait, you mean that improving public education is a bad thing now? I disagree. yes, higher cost to taxpayer, but taxpayer also benefits from not having to pay private school tuition, and taxpayer benefits from better educated kids overall. What? Not having private schools limits choice? They need to demonstrate they are significantly better than charter schools to charge the significantly higher tuituion, otherwise, they need to go the way of the horse buggy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, you mean that improving public education is a bad thing now? I disagree. yes, higher cost to taxpayer, but taxpayer also benefits from not having to pay private school tuition, and taxpayer benefits from better educated kids overall. What? Not having private schools limits choice? They need to demonstrate they are significantly better than charter schools to charge the significantly higher tuituion, otherwise, they need to go the way of the horse buggy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Summer break postponed by TheRQ</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/07/15/summer-break-postponed/#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TheRQ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1367#comment-178</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good luck on your plans - enjoy your summer with the kids - extended breaks are hard to come by in our commercial world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good luck on your plans &#8211; enjoy your summer with the kids &#8211; extended breaks are hard to come by in our commercial world.</p>
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