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	<title>Comments for Anne Z.</title>
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	<link>http://annezelenka.com</link>
	<description>notes on numbers and other randomness</description>
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		<title>Comment on Getting ready for connected learning by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2012/02/16/getting-ready-for-connected-learning/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1906#comment-382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good point, r3becca -- that kind of social constructivist learning requires no cognitive-behaviorist learning beforehand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, r3becca &#8212; that kind of social constructivist learning requires no cognitive-behaviorist learning beforehand.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting ready for connected learning by r3becca</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2012/02/16/getting-ready-for-connected-learning/#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[r3becca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1906#comment-381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Social constructivism draws very heavily on the work of Vygotsky, whose focus was on how children learn. A group science project may be an example of social constructivism in action, but so is helping a parent to cook when you are very young. I think most pre-school learning is social constructivist - you make sense of the world with the help of more-able others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Social constructivism draws very heavily on the work of Vygotsky, whose focus was on how children learn. A group science project may be an example of social constructivism in action, but so is helping a parent to cook when you are very young. I think most pre-school learning is social constructivist &#8211; you make sense of the world with the help of more-able others.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting ready for connected learning by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2012/02/16/getting-ready-for-connected-learning/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 16:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1906#comment-380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Nancy, Dragan didn&#039;t talk too much about the three generations of distance education in his presentation but there was a lot of good stuff in it. I&#039;m fascinated by this idea of connectivist education but have also seen good results with the two prior generations too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nancy, Dragan didn&#8217;t talk too much about the three generations of distance education in his presentation but there was a lot of good stuff in it. I&#8217;m fascinated by this idea of connectivist education but have also seen good results with the two prior generations too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting ready for connected learning by Nancy</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2012/02/16/getting-ready-for-connected-learning/#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nancy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 16:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1906#comment-379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for posting this.  I&#039;ve been taking a graduate course on educational philosophies and now I will watch Dragan&#039;s presentation to learn more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this.  I&#8217;ve been taking a graduate course on educational philosophies and now I will watch Dragan&#8217;s presentation to learn more.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Dissertation topic: Constructing predictive indexes by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2011/08/14/dissertation-topic/#comment-335</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1762#comment-335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree, what you&#039;re modeling with the reflective model of participation is a drive to participate, not actual participation. That is a problem with using reflective measurement when a formative model is called for -- you&#039;re not actually capturing the same thing. A drive to participate is prior to actual participation (what you&#039;re trying to quantify) and increased belongingness may be a result of it.

Health does seem multidimensional -- you have respiratory health, brain health, digestive health. Reflective models handle multidimensionality quite well but if you were to use Apgar&#039;s indicators to model health reflectively you&#039;d likely find multiple latent factors and you wouldn&#039;t come up with a one-number summary. You could use a second-order factor model, but the real purpose is to quantify in terms of predicted outcomes... how well will this baby survive and thrive? Introducing predicted outcomes into a formative model actually expresses the situation of interest. Besides that, there is not necessarily a higher order factor of health even though it&#039;s useful for us to conceive of one. A baby might have had an insult to one system but everything else is fine. 

Formative modeling is not illogical just like multiple regression is not illogical -- it is merely a way of expressing that sometimes multiple things combine together to predict other things. I don&#039;t necessarily take a composite variable as something real though. Formative modeling is pragmatic, whereas reflective models often assume a realist epistemology in which latent factors have objective, independent existence.

Thanks for your comment, and for your blog post summarizing Edwards&#039; critiques of formative measurement. I know I have a lot more to think about here and feedback is helpful. Meanwhile, I find Bollen&#039;s writings on formative measurement have some good answers to Edwards&#039; critiques. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, what you&#8217;re modeling with the reflective model of participation is a drive to participate, not actual participation. That is a problem with using reflective measurement when a formative model is called for &#8212; you&#8217;re not actually capturing the same thing. A drive to participate is prior to actual participation (what you&#8217;re trying to quantify) and increased belongingness may be a result of it.</p>
<p>Health does seem multidimensional &#8212; you have respiratory health, brain health, digestive health. Reflective models handle multidimensionality quite well but if you were to use Apgar&#8217;s indicators to model health reflectively you&#8217;d likely find multiple latent factors and you wouldn&#8217;t come up with a one-number summary. You could use a second-order factor model, but the real purpose is to quantify in terms of predicted outcomes&#8230; how well will this baby survive and thrive? Introducing predicted outcomes into a formative model actually expresses the situation of interest. Besides that, there is not necessarily a higher order factor of health even though it&#8217;s useful for us to conceive of one. A baby might have had an insult to one system but everything else is fine. </p>
<p>Formative modeling is not illogical just like multiple regression is not illogical &#8212; it is merely a way of expressing that sometimes multiple things combine together to predict other things. I don&#8217;t necessarily take a composite variable as something real though. Formative modeling is pragmatic, whereas reflective models often assume a realist epistemology in which latent factors have objective, independent existence.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment, and for your blog post summarizing Edwards&#8217; critiques of formative measurement. I know I have a lot more to think about here and feedback is helpful. Meanwhile, I find Bollen&#8217;s writings on formative measurement have some good answers to Edwards&#8217; critiques. </p>
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		<title>Comment on Dissertation topic: Constructing predictive indexes by Richard N. Landers</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2011/08/14/dissertation-topic/#comment-334</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard N. Landers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2011 03:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1762#comment-334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I still don&#039;t think you have your direction of causation correct in regards to formative measurement.  You say:

&quot;In a latent factor setting, you would then assume some underlying level of participation that gave rise to the observed frequencies of participation. That’s not quite right though. If someone increases their participation in some area — say by joining an investment club — their overall level of participation goes up. &quot;

That&#039;s not quite right either - the latent factor would be some psychological trait - e.g. belongingness, desire to participate - which in turn caused both of those participation rates to increase.  You can&#039;t conceptualize that form of participation as causing the other - rather, they are alternate indicators of the same underlying phenomenon (or are possibly at different levels of measurement).

Your observation about Agpar, as far as I can tell not being familiar with it specifically, is right on - you are collecting disparate specific bits of information and ultimately measuring overall health (the latent trait).  The latent trait cannot be measured directly, but the operationalizations that reflect it can.  The complexity really comes in when the latent trait is multidimensional, and it is that complexity level that lead many to flee to the relative (although illogical) simplicity of formative measurement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t think you have your direction of causation correct in regards to formative measurement.  You say:</p>
<p>&#8220;In a latent factor setting, you would then assume some underlying level of participation that gave rise to the observed frequencies of participation. That’s not quite right though. If someone increases their participation in some area — say by joining an investment club — their overall level of participation goes up. &#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not quite right either &#8211; the latent factor would be some psychological trait &#8211; e.g. belongingness, desire to participate &#8211; which in turn caused both of those participation rates to increase.  You can&#8217;t conceptualize that form of participation as causing the other &#8211; rather, they are alternate indicators of the same underlying phenomenon (or are possibly at different levels of measurement).</p>
<p>Your observation about Agpar, as far as I can tell not being familiar with it specifically, is right on &#8211; you are collecting disparate specific bits of information and ultimately measuring overall health (the latent trait).  The latent trait cannot be measured directly, but the operationalizations that reflect it can.  The complexity really comes in when the latent trait is multidimensional, and it is that complexity level that lead many to flee to the relative (although illogical) simplicity of formative measurement.</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-08-28 by Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My feed reader changes all the time, I&#039;m always adding and subtracting depending on what my latest obsession is! The dataspora blog is a good one. I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll keep it around for a while.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My feed reader changes all the time, I&#8217;m always adding and subtracting depending on what my latest obsession is! The dataspora blog is a good one. I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ll keep it around for a while.</p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-08-28 by Catherine</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catherine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[or you know, dataspora - when you let the fingers do the walking and the brain doesn&#039;t do the reading :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or you know, dataspora &#8211; when you let the fingers do the walking and the brain doesn&#8217;t do the reading <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on links for 2010-08-28 by Catherine</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-228</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catherine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mizzee.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/links-for-2010-08-28/#comment-228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like the seven secrets article. Your feed reader must be an amazing read - I&#039;m adding diaspora now, even though I&#039;m out of the ETL/BI/reporting world. I&#039;ve recently become a fan of Good, they do awesome data visualizations - often on education topics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the seven secrets article. Your feed reader must be an amazing read &#8211; I&#8217;m adding diaspora now, even though I&#8217;m out of the ETL/BI/reporting world. I&#8217;ve recently become a fan of Good, they do awesome data visualizations &#8211; often on education topics.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Telling stories to the remembering self by karen darmon</title>
		<link>http://annezelenka.com/2010/03/04/telling-stories-to-the-remembering-self/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[karen darmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 21:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annezelenka.com/?p=1022#comment-194</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[inevitably, as we get older, much older, all we have are our own internalized stories.
the trick is to keep them positive; not to forget the anti hero as well.  the question is what leads to one construct over the other?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>inevitably, as we get older, much older, all we have are our own internalized stories.<br />
the trick is to keep them positive; not to forget the anti hero as well.  the question is what leads to one construct over the other?</p>
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